Construction Manual

Rod,

I hope Sumio does not mind but I will respond to your comments. I am in regular contact with Sumio so I know what is happening.

The problem with the BCC hull in Canada has not been resolved and really don’t know how to do it right now. Really do not want to go to the expense of lawyers…but…this may be what is required.

The Sam L. Morse Co. wanted to buy the 34 like you cannot believe! Lyle Hess had sold the rights to the same person who originally built the Canadian BCC. He took the rights and drawings?with him to South Africa where he began to build a few boats. He wanted to sell the tooling to SLM Co. but the cost for the rights and shipping made it only available to someone with money. There was no choice…no money…??

I know that Channel Cutter Yachts are in new hands and I wish them the best with the 34. A lot of boat for 34 feet.

Hope this answers questions.

Roger

Roger – Yet another difference in the Canadian boats occurs to me: many of the older ones have balsa cored decks. The SLM boats are all plywood cored. The balsa had its own pros and cons, but I’ve found some Canadian built boats with balsa deck cores, and a teak overlay fastened with screws through the fiberglass and into the balsa.?

SV MINX
Roy Myers?

Roy:

You wrote:

“Roger – Yet another difference in the Canadian boats occurs to me: many of the older ones have balsa cored decks. The SLM boats are all plywood cored. The balsa had its own pros and cons, but I’ve found some Canadian built boats with balsa deck cores, and a teak overlay fastened with screws through the fiberglass and into the balsa.”?

SV MINX
Roy Myers?

I was a somewhat concerned about your statement.???This was news to me. ?We own a Canadian built boat. I drove to the boat today after learning the Canadian boats, had balsa coring and the Canadians had mechanically fastened the wood overlay through the decks. Our boat has a deck composed of a wood overlay on fiberglass. Well, I decided to be brave and dug out one of the large bungs in the deck. All your concerns suddenly hit me in the face. I was “sick” at what I saw. I have not had the courage to telephone my lovely wife and break the news to her. At first I thought this was not possible. We did buy the boat in good faith and with a full survey. How was I to know these things. I thought that’s why we employed a surveyor.

After taking this first step, I summoned my courage and went below to remove panels from the underside of the deck. After removing several panels, my initial suspicions?came?home. This will?break my wife’s heat. She so loves IDUNA. To own a BCC has been her dream.

Those damn Canadians, yes, I said DAMN CANADIANS.???They had fastened the wood overlay to the fiberglass decks, into the balsa coring and through the fiberglass underside. Some of the fastenings had not been cut off. They hadn’t even bothered to use proper boat screws. Those Damn Canadians, who are so proud of their railroads?over the?Rocky Mountains, had not done the job right. Instead of screws, they used railroad track spikes. Yes, just plain old Canadian Pacific railroad spikes, not galvanized spikes, but just plain old railroad spikes. To add insult to injury, instead of using teak overlay, the wood was milled from railroad ties.

I suspect, we shall donate the boat to the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore and purchase a SLM built BCC.

Best Regards and Fair Winds,

Rod
S/V IDUNA

P.S. Sorry, I was a little bored today and love to tell and write stories.

Rod – Glad to give you an excuse to write stories! I’ve worked on two BC built boats with problems caused by the balsa coring. My home port is Bellingham, Washington, just across the border from the old Steveston BC builder of the BCC. I visited the ‘plant’ when one last BCC was being finished in the water. There are many Canadian?BCC’s in the Northwest. The quality varies tremendously from boat to boat. Some have the SLM style of bulwark; most have the style Roger describes.??

I certainly don’t mean to offend or injure anyone’s feelings, but if you do have a balsa cored deck, pay close attention to anything fastened?through or into it. It only takes one experience of scooping out rotten?balsa to scare you. Water absolutely must not enter the wood. Fastenings?provide a path?to?allow water to migrate through the fiberglass. Of course, the same is true of plywood, though the process takes considerably?longer. No matter which, the repairs are expensive and involved.?

One question: how much care do those railroad tie decks?require? With all the left over creosote, we might be onto something.

SV MINX
Roy Myers

Those Dastardly hosers, Bob and Doug Mckenzie of the great white North, have railroaded yet another innocent yank. You can bet they are swilling their strange brew and laughing about it right now.

Roy:

I am glade you took the story in fun. I am well aware of the problems with teak decks. We are fortunate, the decks on IDUNA were repaid and all the bungs have been kept in sound condition as evident by the lack of staining around the bungs. I have “opened” the decks via the two deck prisms and where the mast ring goes through the deck. The balsa core color is white and very?sound. I have also removed?all of the interior deck?panels when I re-wired the boat and noted no indicators of leaks or any seeping. The bronze stanchions on?our?boat are bolted?through solid fiberglass.??All fittings and hardware are bronze. The?blocks are?wood and were made in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. The hull has been insulated with 3/4" polyurethane closed cell foam. This is glass over and lines the hull proper.

We had rebuilt our last boat, a custom built aft-cabin Flicka, hence have completed our?“degrees” in boat mucking.??She is in the Seattle area now.

A plywood core maybe stronger than balsa cored decks?but leaks can lead to rot which spreads through plywood faster than balsa core. Unfortunately, there is not a perfect building material for boats. The key is good maintenance regardless of the building material. The current practice for laying a teak deck over fiberglass is epoxy bonding. These decks start to debond after about 4 to 5 years. The key to teak decking is stay on top of the maintenance. I have seen rotted decks in all sorts of boats. An excellent surveyor in our area believes the best method to hold a teak deck in place is still?polysulfide and mechanical fastenings.

IDUNA was built well by her first owners - Peter and Erica Thinnus. Based on the joiner work and the thought that went into the layout, this was not?their first boat. He sold the boat after a year and built a large steel boat, then went cruising. IDUNA?was well taken care of by her previous owners. I would not have purchased the boat if this?were not the case.

It is my understanding, the early SLM BCC’s had their problems where the wood bulwark stanchions passed through the deck. They also had problems with the whale strake boards. I believe some of the early SLM BCC’s had teak decks over fiberglass. I suspect there are few SLM BCC’s out there with soft decks. At this point in time, it does not matter, there are well maintained boats and poorly maintained boats regardless of who built them.

Sometimes I am a little sensitive about remarks/rumors made about Canadian BCC’s. I suspect Ed McNeil, the owner of Channel Cutter Yachts, was, if I may be polite, in the boat building game for only the money, as were many owners when boat building companies were many in the 1970’s and 1980’s, ?just ask the Nor’sea 27 folks. Unfortunately, rumors without foundation spread. Rumors and unfounded statements do not help the market price of?well built and well maintained?Canadian BCC’s.??I once asked Lin Pardey about Canadian built BCC’s. Her comment was, she understood they were built better than the SLM BCC’s. I suspect,?this was just a repeat of hearsay. I do not know and it does not matter. What I do know is, we have a good boat and as is always the case, should we decide to sell her, no matter what is said and done, the boat must stand along and pass survey. This?is the case?for all boats regardless of the make or model.

If I may?make a request, can we move on to other business than attempting to compare CCY BCC’s to the SLM BCC’s. This forum is one of the best advertisements for SLM and as such, let us?try to help SLM, so?Sumio will have some new boats to build.
?

Fair Winds,

Rod
S/V?IDUNA??

Rod

Please explain how boat builders of the Norsea 27 were in it only for the money. ?(you say in the 70s and 80s…)

We would all be interested in your “expert” knowledge.

All of us ‘Nor’Sea 27 Folks’ would like to hear the facts; “If I may be polite”…

Bob

Bob:Your question is well founded. My reference to Nor’sea was in reqard to Bob Eeg and several judgements against him - see below. This information was originally from a former Nor’sea 27 owner who cruised his boat for 16 years. My friend had a Dean Wixom built?boat.??This cases as?referenced below, occurred at a later time, certainly not when Dean Wixom ran the company.If I worded the sentence wrong or?offended you, my apologies.Fair Winds,
Rod??

Nor’Sea Sailboat Buyer’s Guide
If you are about to buy a boat from Nor’Sea, consider this your lucky day. Many of us were not so fortunate.

I paid Mr. Robert Eeg in full for a new Nor’Sea 27 sailboat. He never delivered the sailboat and kept all the money as profit. I sued Mr. Robert Eeg for breach of contract and fraud. In 1995, I obtained a court judgment for breach of contract only (not fraud) from Mr. Robert Eeg for $74,451.50. As of today, August 14, 2002, he has not paid me one penny towards satisfying the judgment.

A judgment exists against Robert Eeg of Nor’Sea, builder of the Nor’Sea 27 sailboat.??Reason for judgment for breach of contract: non-delivery of boat.More Judgments Against Robert Eeg: ?California Public RecordsDr. Glen Justice gets a new Nor’Sea 27 from Nor’Sea “for less than cost” according to Bob Eeg. ?Read Dr. Glen Justice’s story about what really happened.
“Here is a photo of Jim Montgomery’s Nor’Sea 27. I sold Jim this boat January 10, 1992. It was a boat that was fully equipped and ready for sea.” Read Bob Eeg’s Big Lie .

See articles in “Practical Sailor” about Nor’Sea and owner Robert Eeg. – back issues available: call Practical Sailor at (203) 661-6111.
October 15, 1994 (Volume 20, Number 20) “Alive But Not Well: Nor’Sea Marine”
July 15, 1995 (Volume 21, Number 14) “Nor’Sea Still Under Siege”
Quote from Tom Gannon, reporter for “Practical Sailor,” in reference to Robert Eeg of Nor’Sea: “I have never before seen fraud of this magnitude in the boating industry.”
?from - http://www.norsea27.com??And After Sundance, There Was Windsong?? (by Tom Gannon of PS)Frederick Booth (see main story) says that after Nor?Sea failed to deliver Sundance, a factory trade in, or build him a new 27, Eeg offered him another demo, Windsong, describing it as ?factory new? with a launch date of April 10, 1993. ?It?s rare we have a boat in stock,? the flyer continued, adding, ?No waiting.? [I saw this flyer too ? Jim] In fact, Gene Bleasedale of Glen Ellen, California had been waiting for that particular boat since 1989. ?It?s a tragic story, like the others,? Bleasedale began his account to PS. According to Bleasedale, he and his wife visited the Nor?Sea factory in 1988 in search of a boat. He said Eeg promised them ?he could put a boat together in three months, no problem.? A month later, Bleasedale paid $1,000 to reserve a boat and to be locked into 1988 prices. Over the next months, he said, he ?doled out? payments to Nor?Sea, eventually putting up about $70,000. He spent another $6,000 for a trailer he had shipped to the plant and about $12,000 for other gear, primarily electronics. Bleasedale says now his mistake was in asking for optional work to be done without getting a firm price or completion date. In 1991, after many delays, he said Eeg told him. ?I need $12,0000 to finish your boat.? The price tag later rose to $19,000 and finally Bleasedale was informed by Eeg that he?d borrowed $60,000 to finish the boat and that there was a lien for that amount against it. In his last conversation with Eeg, he said, ?He told me I had no interest (claim) in the boat. ?We were going to call it Encantadora (Enchantress).? Eeg named it Windsong. Fred Booth was not the only unhappy customer to be offered a chance to own Windsong. Jim Montgomery, who says Eeg sold a new 27 that he?d been promised (and had paid for) [Eeg confessed to this in court ? Jim], offered him the boat in 1993 as a replacement. ?Give me $25,000 and I?ll put your hull number on it,? he quoted Eeg as saying. Montgomery said his lawyer advised against it. In fact, the title to this boat, like that of Sundance, was not completely clear. Eeg had taken a $60,000 loan against it from Ganis (in December of 1991, as a new boat). The loan is outstanding. When last seen, Windsong, vintage uncertain, was in the water at Dana Point.from:

http://www.norsea27.com/Genes_story/index.htm

Rod
you seem to have only read part of the story.

http://www.practical-slander.com/index.html

There are two sides to every story. An expert like you should be more careful when he slams people.

Just goes to show; you’ll never find a more opinionated lot than a room full of blow boaters.?

Add a case of beer then stand back and watch the fur fly.?

This never was about quality or international relations. Rather, it is about legality and the business ethics of an unknown party who doesn’t have a problem bootlegging intellectual property and his unfortunate customers who were just trying to save a buck.

This is not the forum for your discussion. While I can only speak for myself I suspect there are others who would appreciate you all taking your discussion off this board. Thank you in advance for being considerate of the rest of us who view this forum in a different light.

I agree 100%…?

Steve

Folks,?
Thank you for your thoughts on the differences between the two versions of BCCs my concerns have now been put to rest.

I knew a was risking opening a proverbial Pandora’s Box by asking, and on that thought I’m now asking that we end this tread & move on.

If anyone still has anything else they wish to share with me on this subject please email me directly, my email address is in the database.??
?
Again thank you!
Rick Snider
S/V Aistear #7

We all have a stake in supporting the fleet and seeing more new BCC’s on the water, but first on the order book at Costa Mesa.

We can keep this site active with good informational reports, stories and yarns. And let others know about the fleets assets.

Secondly, promote the values of simple cruising with conversations, letters and perhaps a fleet ad/newsletter? (which would include some dues??)

Thirdly, sail hell out of the boat!

nathaniel berkowitz, sausalito california
tel: 415 331 3314 fax: 415 331 1854

Dear Forum Users:?
My apologies, this?one got away from my general policy of letting controversial issue go by the wayside and keeping my political views out of discussion forums.?
I am deeply sorry for any harm I may have brought to the?BCC?discussion forum.?

Sincerely,?
Rod
S/V IDUNA

Rod:

I guess my vote would be to continue to address controversial issues as they may relate to our boats or “relatives” of our boats. Lyle Hess’ wonderful creations deserve to be nurtured and protected by those of us who know them best. There are those out there who have/can give his boats a bad name and, as Hess owner wannabe’s visit this web site, we owe it to them as well to share our understandings about the boats and the people who build them…good, bad, or indifferent.

Just sailed home this morning after a short trip on White Wings and am feeling quite fondly toward the breed. I never go out that I am not more amazed and pleased by the quality and detail of my BCC.

Tom

I agree with Tom, as long as discussion is healthy and does not degenerate into mudslinging. Bob’s “expert” opinion would have been a lot more credible had he told us of any connection before starting a slinging match.
John (no connection to anything)

I think it a timely moment to make some long understood points regarding this discussion group.??
As far as I am concerned (I suspect I speak for most), this board is 'for, by and of" BCC owners. To the extent that it automatically does so, it is an excellent support mechanism for the Sam L Morse Co, but?that isn’t really the intent of the board.??
This board, unlike some other owner’s boards out there, is uncensored by the manufacturer (or anyone else). We may discuss any issue we wish, controversial or otherwise. This holds tremendous potential. We can?come up with issues that only users will discover, informing the builder of something that may?need?attention, and other owners of issues that they must?attend to?on their own boats. We may invent a modification that is of so much value that it becomes a standard retrofit on most boats.?This open policy creates a potentially vulnerable situation for?SLMCO and an opportunity for unscrupulous competitors. Anyone may read the posts here. Some?threads could be reinterpreted as criticism of the?BCC, and re stated to prospective boat buyers, twisting the intent to disfavor the?little ship?we all love so much.??That issue concerns me, and finding a relatively unidentified person observing these discussions makes me wonder on their intent. Particularly when they turn out to be the manufacturer being mentioned.? In the spirit of this board, let us have open handed declaration of identification.??Several less scrupulous companies are interested in illegally copying Lyle’s designs, and plenty of buyers stand in line to get a big break. Please note that I’m not accusing anyone of?the above?practices, merely pointing out that the potential exists.?The distribution of the construction manual creates a similar problem recently discussed here. I have a copy of it made for me by George Hylkema when he was owner of SLMCO and I was?building up?Hull #30. It’s a prize, but so full of conflicting and disorderly information as to be, in George’s words: ‘worth laughing about over a bottle of rum’. Yet, it’s distribution does invite buyers of illegal hulls to believe that they are one step ahead towards completion of an ‘almost BCC’.?I can hardly blame other makers from watching this discussion group. For some strange reason, the integrity and longevity of Sam L. Morse Co has led to a?strong group of supportive owners, and another large group of want-to-owns. What on earth could be the secret???
SV MINX
Roy?Myers?

The whole issue of illegal hulls is sad. Sad for the buyers and sad for the builder.?I had scanned the manual for my own use and made it available to folks as a way of saying thanks for going to the trouble of photographingtheir boats for me. It’s not like there is any secret proprietary information that can’t be had from other sources. There are no lines or detailed
construction guidelines specified by the designer such as you might expect if you purchased a set of plans from Lyle’s daughter. There is
nothing there that could not be intuited by a reasonably competent builder; proper placement of the portlights for example or the angles of
the bulwark supports. Helpful but?hardly earth shaking.?Indeed if there were critical information in the manual an argument could be made that the information should be available to the hapless hull buyersso they don’t muck it up and cause a boat to sink. Perhaps for the cost of royalties payable to the copyright owners?
?The bottom line is purveyors of illegal hulls must be identified and crushed. They steal from all of us

Bob: Hi!

Do you happen to have a copy of the February 1977 issue of Cruising World?

That’s the issue that has Chuck Malseed’s article on Lyle Hess, the same article that is on the Nor’Sea website at
http://www.norseayachts.com/lylehess_a_profile.html.

In the same issue of Cruising World, there’s an article ‘Down the Ways’ about Sam L Morse and the BCC.

I’m very interesting in reading the article, but I’ve not been able to find a copy.

Cheers

Bil

BCC28 #116