Rigging

Hi All,

This is my first posting, so please be gentle.

My BCC is in the process of being re-rigged and I am wondering if
anyone has experience and/or recommendations about the following
things:

  1. The rigger is recommending a traveler. My theory is that the
    multi-block arrangement on a BCC acts as at least a semi-traveler.
    But I’m in no position to argue with the rigger. Would this be a
    significant performance improvement?

  2. The rigger is recommending “modern” cleats for the main sheet.
    Sumio told me that Harken 1574s have been installed by Sam L Morse on
    some BCCs with hull ids greater than 100. Is this a significant
    performance improvement?

  3. The rigger is recommending to increase the wire size for the
    standing rigging by 1 size.

  4. On a related note, I am hoping to add a dinghy to my cabin top at
    some point in the future. I am focused, but not stuck, on a Fatty
    Knees. Has anyone had experience with a Fatty Knees (or other
    dinghy) on the cabin top? If so, what size (7 or 8 ft)? And how
    much do you need to raise the boom?

NOTE: I’m not specifically looking to improve the performance of my
BCC, but the rigger has a vision and I can’t re-shape that vision
unless I have some good information.

Thanks for the help,

Rob Wood
S/V Mon Desir

If?I may suggest, don’t do anything until more BCC owners can reply. It is late on the east coast, I?will write more later.

There was a recent post about rigging at this forum. Do a search for “standing rigging” and one for “running rigging.”

The rigger you employed does not understand the BCC and perhaps is attempting to take advantage of?your newness to the boat.

rod
S/V?IDUNA

Dear Ron,
?
Hi there.
?
About rigging, while I’m not expert, I can say
?

  1. Brian Toss says that the BCC is the most amazing rig he knows of and I’d ask him about the Traveler. We’ve invited him to come to Annapolis for Boat Show and I hope he will address this very issue, if he comes&maybe we can use Aloha as a demo BCC&I’d love it.
    ?
  2. As for the Main sheet, I have a simple cam cleat after the block that is Perfect, I’d do no more and I’m a girl. I can take a picture of this neat little addition&it is perfect.?
  3. As for wire size&you are being taken as the BCC is already overbuilt to the max & I can’t imagine anyone recommending a size up & hope you are not talking to Brian Toss
    ?
  4. As for the dinghy on the cabin top, Jolie Brise has a fabulous arrangement originally designed for a Fatty Knees and later adjusted slightly for a slightly lesser dinghy. I much prefer the cabin top mount rather than the one over the doghouse. I have a picture, but you’d really need details. Bill Kiskosski or others might be able to help with specifics. ?
    ?
    Finally, I’d just say that you should avoid doing too much modernization as you will ultimately loose the nature of what Lyle Hess created&and that means you will loose value because BCCs are somewhat of a piece of history&something of the past that is valuable because it is what it is.
    ?
    Thank you for posting&this is a great place, with people with knowledge and experience far greater than that which I have. Let me know if you’d like pictures.?
    Kate
    Kate Christensen
    RogueWave Yacht Sales & Services, LLC.
    1806 Dreams Landing Way
    Annapolis, MD 21401 USA
    410 571-2955 Office
    410 703-5008 Cell
    801 681-9741 Fax
    kate@roguewaveyachtsales.com
    www.roguewaveyachtsales.com

Hi Rob – And welcome to the gang. I second the reply from Rod- the rigger is either a novice himself or is attempting to take advantage of your relative lack of info. That is… given that the present standing rig is made of standard size wires. You need a rig/ sail plan. The boats are?very heavily?rigged to begin with- some people deviate away from the original plan to standardize the wire sizes, but certainly no need to increase anything.

BCC’s have had travelers installed. Just my personal opinion: it misses the point of the boat. Travelers are not necessary. Some slight performance gain, but are you doing buoy races??

The cam cleats are a convenience item. If you plan on doing lots of daysailing, or competitive sailing, perhaps they are a good idea. For cases where the mainsheet is not being handled on a moment by moment basis (cruising?) cleating off is not bad at all. I compromised when I built MINX and used the jamming type of cleat. Performance gain? Only in the fact that you might tend to trim the mainsheet more often if it’s easier to do. Which could be significant.

MINX carries a Ranger Minto 9 foot sailing dinghy on the cabin top. The boom is at standard height. I’m very happy with the arrangement, the dinghy and it’s sailing performance. The Minto isn’t as deep as a Fatty Knees, is very easily driven?and is about 90 lbs. It too is lapstrake/ glass. I’ve won numerous races against?FKs. The?Minto is ‘finer’ all round than the FK, but carries unbelievable quantities of gear and people. 9 feet fits on the cabin semi-diagonally,?with the stern at the mast and the stem of the inverted dinghy offset so access?below is OK.??When I was building I?decided that I wanted the biggest hard?tender I could?fit and that since?tenders get used so much in real life cruising, it needed to be a priority. The decision almost excludes a dodger from the cockpit, though I have in mind one that could be custom made if I really wanted to.

Roy
SV MINX??

My answers to your questions are in the text below.
----- Original Message -----
From: frwood2000
To: bcc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: [bcc] Rigging

Hi All,

This is my first posting, so please be gentle.

[RB] This forum is run by a good, helpful group of people - welcome to the BCC Discussion Forum.

My BCC is in the process of being re-rigged and I am wondering if
anyone has experience and/or recommendations about the following
things:

  1. The rigger is recommending a traveler. My theory is that the
    multi-block arrangement on a BCC acts as at least a semi-traveler.?
    But I’m in no position to argue with the rigger. Would this be a
    significant performance improvement?

[RB]The BCC will point upwind to perhaps 50 degrees to the true wind in calm water but 55 to 60 degrees is more common. These tacking angles of 100 to 120 degrees tack-to-tack are dictated by the fact the boat is a full keel boat and not a?fin keel boat such as a J-boat, etc. Adding a travel will not improve the tack-to-tack angle. It may improve the performance to some degree but the cost and complexity of adding a travel, in my opinion, does not merit the marginal gain in sail performace. Lyle Hess, designed a superb sail machine and knew what he was doing when he setup the mainsheet fittings. If it would have been incorrectly designed Sam L. Morse Co. would have change the sheeting arrangement a long time ago. Don’t add complexity to such simple functional mainsheet - KISS and save your money.

  1. The rigger is recommending “modern” cleats for the main sheet.?
    Sumio told me that Harken 1574s have been installed by Sam L Morse on
    some BCCs with hull ids greater than 100. Is this a significant
    performance improvement?

[RB] Before you spend good money, sail the boat this season then decided if you want to make any changes to the mainsheet cleating arrangement. Aloha, has a simple cleating bracket which we plan to copy for IDUNA. If you are determined to add cam cleats, I can sketch Aloha’s fittings and provide measurement. This is the same arrangement, the Pardey’s use. The fitting can be made by a machine shop. You can do the rest.

  1. The rigger is recommending to increase the wire size for the
    standing rigging by 1 size.

[RB] Stan Roeder wrote the following: ?"I believe the original plan called for 9/32 wire (1x19)for the head and back stays, staysail stay and upper shrouds. Lowers were 1/4. Bobstay, 3/8. Whisker and boomkin stays 5/16. On Waxwing, I
standardized just a bit by using 9/32 for the lowers instead of the 1/4.

I do not recall any running rigging being stated but we did go with 7/16 on halyards(all rope, Marlow pre-stretched three-strand), and 1/2 Samson braid on the sheets. I think all the running rigging could have been smaller by one size (strength wise), but we like the ‘fit’ for handling of the 7/16 and 1/2 inch.

Stan…Waxwing, hull #22"

The standing rigging is?appropriately oversized for the boat. IDUNA?has 9/32 diameter?wire for all the standing rigging with the exception of the bobstay and bumpkin’s stays. In my opinion, the rigger you employed is either very new, does not understand the boat, or?is?motivated by?other personal reasons.

?4. On a related note, I am hoping to add a dinghy to my cabin top at
some point in the future. I am focused, but not stuck, on a Fatty
Knees. Has anyone had experience with a Fatty Knees (or other
dinghy) on the cabin top? If so, what size (7 or 8 ft)? And how
much do you need to raise the boom?

[RB] Don’t raise the boom or change the rig and don’t make changes without sailing the boat. If you raise the boom, you reduce the sail area of the mainsail. This is where the power is on a full keel boat. Further, you will?change the sheeting angles and the center of effort of the sail plan. If you must have a dink immediately, buy a cheap inflatable kyake, use the boat, do your research and read the discussion forum?before rushing out to spend good money.?The BCC discussion forum is one of the?better internet forums. It is?run by adults without name calling or insulting other members. Post your questions and we will do our best to answer them. There are many ways to do things on a boat, some are better than others but they all work.

NOTE: I’m not specifically looking to improve the performance of my BCC, but the rigger has a vision and I can’t re-shape that vision unless I have some good information.

[RB] It is your money and you can “re-shape” the riggers vision by simply?sacking the rigger and if necessary employ a rigger who is recommended by knowledgeable sailors - do your reseach. ?If the rigging appears to be in good shape, sail the boat for a season before making any changes - “learn” the boat but above all, remember the boat was designed by a great designer who knew a good boat. The BCC is fast.
Fair Winds and Welcome,

Rod
S/V IDUNA

Roy of Minx,
?
Hi there. Thanks for your rigging comments. Are you sailing East or sailing West…or North or South. We need more BCCs in the East!?
Kate
Kate Christensen
RogueWave Yacht Sales & Services, LLC.
1806 Dreams Landing Way
Annapolis, MD 21401 USA
410 571-2955 Office
410 703-5008 Cell
801 681-9741 Fax
kate@roguewaveyachtsales.com
www.roguewaveyachtsales.com

Rob,
I either have done or am contemplating some of the things you’ve asked about, so please allow me to add my two cents worth.

I’m contemplating a traveler - not to make my boat a buoy racer, but to ease the helm when going upwind in a blow. Dealing with too much weather helm isn’t fun
or fast racing or cruising. It has been suggested that a simple bronze track on the taff rail with adjustable stops would accomplish the objective without changing the look of the boat too much. I certainly wouldn’t want all the control blocks and lines on modern travelers.

I converted my old single ended main sheet to a double ended version terminating in cam cleats. This was done to allow me to adjust the main more easily on
either tack, and I’m glad I made the change.

I can’t imagine the need to beef up your rigging beyond standard. I can recommend an excellent rigger in Long Beach, California if you’re interested.

I have a 7 foot Fatty Knees mounted on cabin top chocks which I’m very happy with. Launching and recovering it singlehanded was difficlut, but I’ve
recently improvised a sling and swivel which make it much easier. If Mon Desire is still in Southern California, drop by my boat and I’ll show you what I’ve done. I’m in the Alamitos Bay Marina, Gangway 14.

You can email me at getlokke@y… The earlier advice about not being too quick to make changes is excellent. Get to know your boat first.
Lokke Patrick
S/V Resolute
BCC #55

— frwood2000 <frwood2000@y…> wrote:

Rob: Hi, congratulations for having bought a BCC28 and welcome!

"My BCC is in the process of being re-rigged and I am wondering if anyone has experience and/or recommendations about the following things:

  1. The rigger is recommending a traveler. My theory is that the multi-block arrangement on a BCC acts as at least a semi-traveler. But I’m in no position to argue with the rigger. Would this be a significant performance improvement?"

I’ve seen, but not sailed, only one BCC28 with a traveller. She had her traveller mounted on the taff rail, which I figure would run to a boom angle of
about 10 degrees either side of the centreline (the gallows notches are at a boom angle of about 8 degrees off the centreline and the outer edge of the gallows uprights is about 13 degrees off the centreline). When sailing hard on the wind in flat water, I aim for boom angles in the 5 - 10 degree range, but that’s the only time when I would use a traveller (and as Rod pointed out, a BCC prefers to be a little less hard on the wind: why choke her when she prefers to go to wind a little freer?). Being hard on the wind in flat water is a tiny proportion of my sailing.

I think it’s up to you (not your rigger): if you sail in flat water, are a keen user of a traveller, and get your kicks squeezing max close-hauled VMG performance, then go for it. But if you are not intending to spend your life sailing hard on the wind (no cruiser does so out of choice), then you can find many better goods and services for your $$.

“2. The rigger is recommending “modern” cleats for the main sheet. Sumio told me that Harken 1574s have been installed by Sam L Morse on some BCCs with hull ids greater than 100. Is this a significant performance improvement?”

Zygote, BCC28 #116, has the neat Harken swivel-base cleats. I like them v much, but they’re tech overkill for what they do. No performance gain, but a delight to use (to the point that I take them and their fancy bearings for granted). I assume your Mon Desir must have something that already works.

“3. The rigger is recommending to increase the wire size for the standing rigging by 1 size.”

Rod, Roy and others have commented already. No rigger wants to be held liable for sending a rig to sea that might fail. But what are the apples and oranges that we are talking about, in terms of what type and size of wire does Mon Desir have now?

Sam L Morse Co currently builds BCC28s using 316 stainless 1x19. That’s great for cruising, especially in hot tropical waters (Zygote is at 5 N 100 E, water temp is close to 30C). 302 series ss 1x19 wire is a little stronger, but is not as suitable for warm and salty tropical water. And 7x19 galvanised wire is even stronger and cheaper (and of course even less suitable for hot salty water).

Here’s Zygote’s standing rigging specs in 316 ss 1x19 (in case our e-mail clients make a mess, following is a 4 column x 11 row table, the columns are stay, diameter (inches), length (pin-to-pin, in feet and inches) and Breaking Strength of the wire (in pounds). Note that your stays may differ in length - because masts and hulls vary a little and Zygote has a delrin pad under her mast step. In fact, I intend to increase the length of Zygote’s headstay by about 0.7" when I next rerig, should I live so long):

Stay Dia Length BS (lbs)

Headstay 9/32 40’ 2.75" 8700
Bobstay 3/8 8’ 0.5" 14800
Whisker stays 1/4 14’ 0.5" 6900
Staysail stay 9/32 26’ 6" 8700
Cap shrouds 1/4 37’ 9" 6900
Intermediate shrouds 1/4 26’ 7.5" 6900
Lower forward shrouds 1/4 15’ 4" 6900
Lower aft shrouds 1/4 15’ 8.5" 6900
Backstay 9/32 8700
Boomkin stays 5/16 3’ 10" 10600

The table lacks an entry for the length of the backstay because my backstay is in three parts with the mid length insulated from the others to act as SSB
antenna.

As Rod and others have commented, 316 ss 1x19 at the above diameters is not stressed in a BCC28: 0.25" 316 ss 1x19 has a breaking strength greater than 2 tonnes. The mast will stand as long as the rig is tuned. Tuning is at least as important as wire diameter, if not more so. A poorly tuned rig can break and fall, regardless of wire diameter, if the mast is not in compression.

“4. On a related note, I am hoping to add a dinghy to my cabin top at some point in the future. I am focused, but not stuck, on a Fatty Knees. Has anyone had experience with a Fatty Knees (or other dinghy) on the cabin top? If so, what size (7 or 8 ft)? And how much do you need to raise the boom?”

Zygote carries a Cherub dinghy (made by Sam L Morse Co, quite similar to the Lyle Hess-designed Fatty Knees in many ways) forward of the mast (the bow of
the dinghy sits in a notch in the bowsprit, the transom is captured by two cleats to port and starboard of the fore edge of the mast; the dinghy sits over the scuttle hatch). A Cherub is (check the Sam L Morse Co website) about 7’4" or 2.2 metres long and weighs about 39 kg or 85 lbs. Being on the foredeck means that I can use a halyard and winch to lift the dinghy over the lifelines for launch and retrieval. And it leaves my sight lines over the cabin top unimpaired. I launch and retrieve my dinghy with the help of one crew. Roger Olson has, in an earlier post to this group, explained his technique, using a
couple of short lines, to launch and retrieve singlehanded.

I agree with Rod - don’t raise your boom. And be prepared to look for another rigger.

Cheers

Bil
Zygote, Penang, Malaysia

Hi Rob,

  1. The rigger is recommending a traveler.

I see no advantage to a traveler on boom end sheeting. Even if a four-part car-type traveler is placed across the taffrail it can only minimally effect sail/shape trim when hard on the wind. Any angle less then hard on the wind, it doesn’t make any difference because the sheeting angle is such that the boom is beyond the virtical of the transom. I used to have a bronze track across the taffrail that the lower, center sheet block would ride on (with movable stops)but
never felt that it made any difference in pointing. The difference in sheeting angle was just to slight, even with the movable block moved up the weather side of the traveler. I later re-rigged and left the bronze traveler off. I don’t feel end-boom sheeting lends itself to any great sailshaping the way a mid-boom traveler will.

Also, as has already been mentioned by others, the BCC will ‘stand up’ and move faster with an eased main rather than trying to pinch-up by oversheeting. Just my 2-cents worth.

  1. The rigger is recommending “modern” cleats for the main sheet.

I’m not an advocate of cam or clam cleats on main sheets unless you’re a racer. There is too much opportunity to ‘knock’ them loose inadvertantly in a crowded cockpit; not a danger, just a pain in the neck.

On Waxwing, we have the traditional double ended mainsheet with standard Herreshoff horned cleats mounted on the inboard end of the boomkin. They are large enough to also act as ‘dock’ cleats. And a simple round turn with a single cross over (not a half-hitch)hold the mainsheet in the worst of conditions.

  1. The rigger is recommending to increase the wire size for the
    standing rigging by 1 size.

The sizes Hess recommends is very adequate. I increased the size of my shrouds one size to 9/32 only to standardize it with most of the other wire for simplicity of using interchangable Sta-Loc wire and fittings. It means having to carry less parts while cruising.

  1. On a related note, I am hoping to add a dinghy to my cabin top

We used to carry our Montgomery 6.5 foot dink on the cabin top on long passages which was fine because you are rarely sitting at the helm trying to ‘see’ where you’re going. But for coastal or inshore work it really blocks the view foreward. I didn’t care for the option of putting one on the foredeck because it limits the area to work while setting the staysail and while anchoring (and the foredeck is my favorite spot to ‘hang out’ underway).

Our personal answer was a dinghy too large to put on deck and had to be towed. Not the best idea but worked fine throughout the Caribbean. (Actually we towed 12-foot dinks from the Chesapeake to Venezuela.)

Best of luck with Mon Desir.

And isn’t # 18 the former Kickorangi? If so, I sailed her on San Francisco bay as she was passing through on her way to Vancouver in '77.

Stan, on Waxwing #22

I to have a BCC with a Fatty Knees dingy on chocks on the deck under the boom. I would be very interested in seeing your arrangement for single handed launching and stowing of your dingy.
If you have any pictures or a description of how you do this I would very much appreciate your forwarding that information to me.

Steven Osborne
Crystal Swan II
Hull Number 91

Kate – No specific plans at the moment. Perhaps west, considering several ideas. I’ll let you know.

Roy

40 years ago all us poor folk used 7X7 galvanized and spliced it.

It will cost you less than half as much and last more than twice as long. Good quality galvanized wire will be about as strong as good quality 316 stainless, and the weight will be about the same also.

The reason galvanized last longer is because mild steel is not subject to work harding.

As far as rigging goes, stainless steel is overrated. It does have one advantage, however, stainless steel wire shines at little and some people think that is very pretty.

Personally, I would rather save my money.

I very much appreciate your comments so far.

I just wanted to clarify something important.

The rigger that is working on Mon Desir has an excellent reputation and was highly recommended by multiple people, including the person who rigs BCCs for Sam L Morse. He is very excited about the project, has previously rigged at least 1 BCC and refers to the BCC as a “phenomenal boat”.

However, I don’t believe that he follows BCCs to the same level of detail as people on this forum. I think that he is just going through his standard checklist of items for a boat whose rigging is 20 years old.

He was the one that suggested that I check with Sam L Morse regarding some of these items and on Thursday he suggested contacting Sam L Morse himself (specifically regarding the wire size).

Sumio has been very helpful, but I wanted to get some feedback from the people on this forum. I’ve monitored it for a while and am impressed with the level of enthusiasm here.

At this point, I am thinking (unless I see some compelling reasons to do otherwise):

  1. Not to go with the traveler.
  2. Not to go with the updated cleats.
  3. Not to go with the larger wire size.

Thanks,

Rob Wood
S/V Mon Desir
BCC #18

Rob,

Here is my advice, for what it’s worth:

  1. The rigger is recommending a traveler. My theory is that the
    multi-block arrangement on a BCC acts as at least a semi-traveler.
    But I’m in no position to argue with the rigger. Would this be a
    significant performance improvement?

This greatly depends on how you plan to use the boat, what your
budget is, and what priority this falls into when considering other
improvements. We don’t have a BCC, but instead have a Westsail which
is very similar. We sail her often and have never felt it necessary
to install a traveler. Since our mainsheet blocks are on the
boomkin, we didn’t want to use the real estate on the trunk to
accomodate the new hardware. Besides, we do just fine without one.

  1. The rigger is recommending to increase the wire size for the
    standing rigging by 1 size.

I discussed this option with Brion Toss when we visited the Seattle
Boat Show in January. He described the rigging as a system that is
carefully balanced by the designer. The hull, mast and standing
rigging are all designed to work together in a balanced fashion.
When you change one of the elements, you change the system. When it
comes to well-built boats, there’s a reason why the rigging was
designed with a particular wire size. Less reputable models use
smaller wire size because it’s more readily available, cheaper, or
otherwise. I respect Brion’s opinion on this, and we’re glad that
decided not to follow our rigger’s advice.

Regards,

Louis
s/v Synergy
Westsail 32 #679

I installed the bronze cam cleats on my taffrail as outlined in “Cost Conscious Cruiser”, used 3/16" brass plate. A pain to cut and fit, the rigger will likely not be interested in fabricating something de novo, but it works very well and fits beautifully with the traditional look.

John Churchill

you are so right thank god. hull 36
frank

My BCC (SLM #86) came to me with a fatty knees on custom chocks on
top of the cabin. Here is my experience:

  1. Fatty Knees is an incredible dinghy. It rows really well. It
    feels like it was designed by Lyle Hess, which I understand is the case! I love that little boat.
  2. I am not bothered by the blocking of my view; I can see just fine over or around it. It offers some protection if you don’t have a dodger.
  3. I launch it single handed since I sail alone. I move the boom out of the way and use the main halyard, lift and heave it over the lifelines. It’s a little clumsy but not too bad. This season I will do something a little fancy with the boom maybe to try to lower the dinghy in a more level way and avoid getting water inside it.
  4. A minus is that it blocks the light coming from the butterfly hatch, but a plus is that the fwd doghouse hatch, which is vastly more important, is free to use.

I also re-did the running rigging (before all those messages where posted), and I would like to share that I am very pleased with New England Ropes “regatta braid” for all sheets, etc and Sta-set-X for halyards. The regatta braid looks nice and feels nice. THe sta-set X is very low stretch and plus it feels good, not too slippery.