Advice re sails

Work on hull 126 is moving along quite nicely, and I am asking for advice re sails, sailmakers etc. I wonder about types of material and their weight, any particular design details that are worth pursuing. Any tips that anyone has would be appreciated as I have to order soon so as the boat can Christened next year. Thanks.

Hello Stewart,

I am sure there are alot of opinions on sails and sail sizes for jib etc.
Just a couple of comments here. I have had my last set made by Elliot Pattison who supplied most of the sails to Sam L Morse from what I understand. I went with the Tanbark for the look but in retrospect would go with the standard high quality white fabric. I often wonder whether they use the best fabric when it will be dyed red. ( I don’t think you get the best cut of steak when you are going to order it cooked well done.)
They did a decent job but whoever you use it is critical to have the measurements done at your boat by the guy who will cut the sails/ Too often someone has a furler higher off the deck or another situation which if not checked on site, will cause you problems when you try to bend them on and they are not correct.
Also do not go with too large of a job that gives you no additional utility but rather reduces it instead. Many of the BCC’s have the main “Dutch” cut so that there are no battens. This has advantages also but I have found that the center of the sailcloth tends to stretch more than the leach and you end up with a very full main sooner than you would with the traditional cut main. My personal preference is for the standard length batten main. I think it gives a better shape over a nonger periond of time.
I know others will chime in here and I am interested in their comments as well.
Best to you on your Spring Launch
Mark
SV “Lightfoot”
ps pictures of the sails on Lightfoot (Tanbark) are in the gallery section under “Turkey Shoot” race.

Thanks for the quick reply Mark, I had decided that Tan bark was pretty but didn’t come in the quality of white, which is funny cos it costs more. If I wait for the mast to be stepped to get measurements I will, as they say, have missed the boat ing season. I must check the height of the furler, and you make a good point. I suppose having someone local fabricate means that they might re cut as part of the deal, in the event of any slip ups.

I should post some pics soon of how the boat is coming along. I have been v busy doing carpentry and the shipwright is beavering away in the bowels of the boat. Engine is in and all the various systems are moving along well.

ist pic should make you smile, 2nd is where the money goes

Thanks for the quick reply Mark, I had decided that Tan bark was pretty but didn’t come in the quality of white, which is funny cos it costs more. If I wait for the mast to be stepped to get measurements I will, as they say, have missed the boat ing season. I must check the height of the furler, and you make a good point. I suppose having someone local fabricate means that they might re cut as part of the deal, in the event of any slip ups.

I should post some pics soon of how the boat is coming along. I have been v busy doing carpentry and the shipwright is beavering away in the bowels of the boat. Engine is in and all the various systems are moving along well.

ist pic should make you smile, 2nd is where the money goes

Thanks for the quick reply Mark, I had decided that Tan bark was pretty but didn’t come in the quality of white, which is funny cos it costs more. If I wait for the mast to be stepped to get measurements I will, as they say, have missed the boat ing season. I must check the height of the furler, and you make a good point. I suppose having someone local fabricate means that they might re cut as part of the deal, in the event of any slip ups.

I should post some pics soon of how the boat is coming along. I have been v busy doing carpentry and the shipwright is beavering away in the bowels of the boat. Engine is in and all the various systems are moving along well. Its quite exciting.

Thanks for the quick reply Mark, I had decided that Tan bark was pretty but didn’t come in the quality of white, which is funny cos it costs more. If I wait for the mast to be stepped to get measurements I will, as they say, have missed the boat ing season. I must check the height of the furler, and you make a good point. I suppose having someone local fabricate means that they might re cut as part of the deal, in the event of any slip ups.

I should post some pics soon of how the boat is coming along. I have been v busy doing carpentry and the shipwright is beavering away in the bowels of the boat. Engine is in and all the various systems are moving along well. Its quite exciting.

Stewart: Hi!

If your mast etc followed the specs that Sumio gave you for mast etc (ie a Forespar mast and the appropriate stays and shroud lengths), then let me strongly suggest that you talk to Elliot Pattison (Elliott / Pattison Sailmakers) for your sails (even though EP is in SoCal).

Reason being is that Roger Olson (who owned Sam L Morse Co before Sumio) redesigned the sail plan. And passed the specs to Elliot Pattison. Roger recut the staysail, making it a tad shorter in J dimension, so it fit the triangle better than before. And he recut the jib topsail so the jibsheet would bisect the angle, allowing the jib sheet block to be at one position for whatever amount of sail is flown (ie you can fix the block position and use a roller furler). Roger also designed the mainsail and its reefing points so the main at 1, 2, and 3 reefs is balanced by the foresail reefing sequence.

Roger also redesigned the storm trysail so it could be flown with a live boom (versus fixing the boom in the gallows and trimming the storm try by taking its sheet to a cleat). Flying the storm try on the live boom means you can trim it with the mainsheet, meaning that the storm try can be finely trimmed - so you can sail well with it (ie it’s not just for survival conditions - I’ve done several hundred miles or perhaps more with the storm try in play). On Zygote, I fly the storm try instead of the 3rd reefed main (because that brings a very strong fabric into play and reduces the risk of tearing the mainsail). Of course, that technique of flying the storm try is only v convenient if you have a separate track for the try on the mast.

Sumio made a tiny refinement to the sails designed by Roger. Sumio suggested (and I guess that Elliot Pattison has the details) a tiny slimming of the mainsail roach, to further reduce weather helm (Zygote’s sails are as per Roger’s design without the Sumio refinement - and I’m happy enough - but Sumio put a lot of his thought into fine refinements to make the BCC even better than Roger left it).

Cheers

Bil

Stewart:

When we had a new main and staysail built for IDUNA, we specified Richard Haywards Sunwing Classic sailcloth. Color selection was tanbark. Richard Haywards Sailcloth, now owned by Heathcoat Fabrics, is a young company in England. They made the sailcloth for Lord Nelson’s Navy.

Their Sunwing line is UV stabilized The UV additive and dye are built into yard before the fabric is woven. I believe this is the only company that puts the dye and UV additive in the cloth and not the sizing. Sunwing Classic comes in several colors such at tanbark, cream, etc. It has a nice hand and feels similar to canvas sailcloth. Unfortunately, Heathcoat Fabrics’ website is lacking in content.

http://www.heathcoat.co.uk/index.php?section=marine&page=sailcloth

The importer in the USA is:

Performance Textiles, Inc.
42 Hudson St # 103
Annapolis, MD 21401
(410) 224-2343?

I just spoke with Performance Textiles and they have a good selection of Richard Haywards sailcloth in stock. If your sailmaker is into traditional type sails he should be aware of this line of sailcloth.

Cheers,

Rod
BCC IDUNA

stewart:

I just recieved the following e-mail from Richard Haywards Sailcloth to my comments regarding their website yesterday. If you would like a sample, they will send you one. See e-mails below:

Dear Mr Bruckdorfer,

Many thanks for your email ? your comments have been passed on and duly noted. We are currently looking at revamping our website so hopefully it will be much more informative.

In the meantime if you require any additional information or sampling on our products please do not hesitate to contact me and I will be pleased to send this to you.

Kind regards,

MRS JO LONG

Sales Coordinator

Richard Hayward Sailcloth

From: Rod Bruckdorfer [mailto:seagypsy@att.net]
Sent: 04 November 2008 02:18
To: NDinsdale
Subject: Richard Haywood Sailcloth

Dear Sir/Madam:

We had our sails made out of Richard Haywards Classic Sunwing fabric about 4 or 5 years ago. At the time, Richard Haywards had their own website with a good description of each fabric with photos.

I wanted to refer a friend, who plans to have new sails made, to your website. I was very disappointed in the lack of information at your website and the lack of photos of your products.

Hopefully, you have plans to upgrade the website so it can compete in this global economy.

Sincerely,

Roderick Bruckdorfer

Baltimore, Maryland USA

Save paper and energy - Think before you print!
Do you really need a printed copy of this email?

Heathcoat Fabrics Ltd is registered in England No. 450787.
Registered Office: Westexe, Tiverton, Devon EX16 5LL.

Hi Stewart,

I have enclosed the specs for the mast, rigging and standard set of sails on all BCC’s during my watch. You might consider making a scaled drawing of the rigging and design your own sails. Needless to say, the best method, as mentioned above, is to step the mast and have an expert sailmaker measure for you sails. One item I would like to mention, when you step your mast, try to reduce as much aft rake as possible. All BCC’s have a weather helm and the less rake will improve this problem.

Roger Olson

MAST 	
     Total height of mast	44' 09"
     Height to center of halyard sheaves	43" 09"
     Height of mast from base to headstay eye	44' 02 1/2"
     Height to backstay hole (center)	44' 08"
     Height to upper shroud hole (center)	43' 02"
     Height to upper spreaders	32' 01"
     Height to staysail stay tang hole (center)	31' 09"
     Height to intermediate shroud hole (center)	31' 10"
     Height to lower spreaders	20' 11"
     Height to lower shroud hole (center)	20' 08"
  •    Height to bottom of tri-sail track	7' 03"
    
  •    Height to top of tri-sail track	30' 00"
    
  •    Height to bottom of downwind pole track	9' 09" 
    
  •    Height to top of downwind pole track	24' 00"
    
  •    Height to pole car lift (center)	24' 03"
    
  •    Height to pole topping lift tang hole (cntr)	29' 08"
       Height to center of goose neck	9' 10"
    
  •    Cleats for pole topping lift 	2
    
  •    Reefing cleats down haul under goose neck	2 or 3
    
  •    Mast steps at approx. 18"	19
       Length of backstay and headstay clevis (cntr)	3"
       Length of upper shroud plates (center)	3 1/2"
       Length of intermediate shroud plates (center)	3 1/2"
       Length of staysail clevis and plates (center)	4.75" + 1.5"
       Length of lower shroud plates (center)	5 3/4"
       Length of chainplates clevises (center)	3"
       All clevis pins and cotter pins provided	20
    
  •    Whisker pole size and type 	3" X 14'
    
    BOOM
    Length of boom 15’ 09"
    STANDING RIGGING (center eye to 2/3 open) 316
    Headstay 9/32 - 1X19 40’ 2 3/4"
    Backstay 9/32 - 1X19 42’ 5"
    Staysail stay 9/32 - 1X19 26’ 6"
    Upper shroud, port & stbd. 1/4 - 1X19 37’ 9"
    Intermediate shroud, port & stbd 1/4 - 1X19 26’ 7 1/2"
    Lower fwd, port & stbd. 1/4 - 1X19 15’ 4"
    Lower aft, port & stbd. 1/4 - 1X19 15’ 8 1/2"
    Bob stay 3/8 - 1X19 8’ 00 1/2"
    Whisker stay port & stbd. 1/4 - 1X19 14’ 00 1/2"
    Boomkin stay, 5/16 - 1X19 3’ 10"
    SAILS (measured from end to end)
    Mainsail luff 32’ 06"
    Mainsail leach 34’ 06"
    Mainsail foot 14’ 08"
  •    Jib top luff	38' 00"
    
  •    Jib top leach	30' 09"
    
  •    Jib top foot	19' 00"
       Yankee luff	38' 00"
       Yankee leach	28' 00"
       Yankee foot	16' 00"
       Yankee pennant	10"
       Staysail luff	24' 00"
       Staysail leach	21' 06"
       Staysail foot	9' 10"
       Staysail pennant	10"
    
  •    Reacher luff	36' 10"
    
  •    Reacher leach	34' 00"
    
  •    Reacher foot	24' 02"
    
  •    Reacher pennant	10"
    
  •    Storm jib luff	21' 03"
    
  •    Storm jib leach	16' 00"
    
  •    Storm jib foot	9' 01"
    
  •    Storm jib pennant	15"
    
  •    Tri-sail luff	14' 06"
    
  •    Tri-sail leach	19' 00"
    
  •    Tri-sail foot	11' 06"
    
    RUNNING RIGGING
    Main halyard with snap shackle 75’
    Jib top halyard with snap shackle 78’
    Staysail halyard with snap shackle 50’
  •    Reacher halyard with snap shackle	75'
       Main sheet	96'
    
  •    Jib top sheet	90'
       Yankee sheet	84'
       Staysail sheet	60'
    
  •    Reacher sheet	115'
    
  •    Storm jib sheet	45'
    
  •    Tri-sail sheet	50'
    
  •    First Reef line, Outhaul	40'
    
  •    Second Reef Line, Outhaul	60'
    
  •    Third Reel Line, Outhaut	80'
    
  •    Reef Luff Down haul	20'
       Sheet blocks installed	5
       Two singles and one double block provided	3
       Bulwark sheet block slides provided	2

I had decided
that Tan bark was pretty but didn’t come in the
quality of white, which is funny cos it costs
more.

It’s a low volume specialty item, so it costs more.
My sailmaker says there are fewer and fewer producers
of this fabric. He would only accept the best quality,
so I assume that means that tanbark is not always of
inferior quality.

The colour of tanbark also varies widely. So don’t
expect the same colour if your sails are made from
different dye lots.

If I wait for the mast to be stepped to get
measurements I will, as they say, have missed the
boat ing season.

Since the cost of new sails is almost as much as
the cost of a new engine, I wouldn’t order any sails
until all the standing rigging was in place. And I’d
let the sailmaker make all the measurements. There
are far too many ways to make an expensive mistake.
I’d certainly talk to the sailmaker before doing
anything. If it takes too long to make the sails,
try buying some used ones to start the boating season
with.

  • Norris, Bristol Cream

Thanks to all of you for a great response, I guess I shall have to go and have a good think about my next move. My education is moving right along, I thought this might be a bit more straightforward, however the comment that sails cost as much as an engine is really quite valid. I appreciate the guidance.

When I sold my Falmouth cutter “Angelsea” she needed a new main for the trip from St. thomas to New York. After 15 years as a charter boat captain in the caribbean I was very impressed with a full battened main. So I recommended to the new owner to go with that. So we ordered a flat cut, full batten main for Angelsea.

I was the steward of Angelsea for 16 years. During that time the best runs I had had with her (via knotmeter) was 6.25-6.5 knots. On the trip to NY and the flat cut FB main we had a number of runs from 6.5-7.25 knots. Less weather helm and she seemed to stand up better. it was an obvious improvement. The problem with the battenless sails, if they are not cut right, they will have a hook in the leach. this KILLS performance, Increases weather helm and induces more heel.

Gary

Gary:

You have a great portfolio. Your work is outstanding.

Rod
BCC IDUNA

Gary who made the sails

Stewart,
The main was made by a local loft here on St. Thomas. They are no longer in biz. to bad. The guy build a gorgous sail.

The point is I think a flat cut FB main is really good for the sail plan. but needs to be on the flat side of normal.

Gary

ps…thanks Rod!

Bil et al.,

We’re in the market for a new staysail and came across this thread while searching the forum.

The BCC construction manual includes two different staysail dimensions and I was wondering if the disparity was due to the modifications Roger made that Bil mentioned.

I found these two dimensions:

  1. (PDF page 124)
    Luff: 24’ 0"
    Leech: 21’ 6"
    Foot: 9’ 10"
    Pennant: 10"

  2. (PDF page 132)
    Luff: 23’ 0"
    Leech: 27’ 0"
    Foot: 12’ 9"

We just got a quote from Sailrite and the dimensions are close to the 2nd set of dimensions listed above:
Luff: 23’ 0"
Leech: 20’ 6"
Foot: 12’ 9"

We need to measure our current staysail (which may be original…she’s in rough shape and so quite stretched so I’m not sure how useful that will be), but the leech chafes against the forward lower shroud while close hauled.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Mike