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To all members:
I am new to this so if this message goes through too many times someone please cut it. My compliments to Jerry and the excellent job he has done on this site and providing the opportunity to discuss our boats. As the builder, I would normally stay out of this as I feel it is between owners and interested parties. If someone wanted to approach me as the builder, my email address is available. However, after reading about the osmosis problems I should clear up a few questions and give my general response.
There is a lot of speculation about osmosis. There are many different theories that have some basis but not all the information is there to draw an absolute cause for all osmotic conditions. Let me try to explain: Example 1: "Osmosis is caused by the improper mixture of catalyst and resin. When moisture exudes through a hull and comes in contact with this improper mixture, a gas is formed that causes expansion that causes blister." This is true...we think but usually this results in huge blisters the size of a dinner plate in the middle of the lamination and may not have any surface blisters. Example 2: "Osmosis is caused by small air bubbles trapped within the lamination. When moisture comes in contact with these air bubbles a gas is created which causes expansion and blisters to occur." This also expected to be true but these blisters are about the size of a silver dollar and also are within the lamination. There are usually no sign of surface blisters. Both example 1 & 2 can effect the structural integrity of the vessel and would be of major concern. Example 3: "Osmosis is caused by the recent change in the chemical components of the resins to meet EPA standards. Thus west coast resins are more susceptible to osmosis than boat built on the east coast where they have less restrictions." All resin producers sell the same resins to all boat builders around the world. I have a letter from Lilly one of the largest producers of resins to prove this is false. As far as the change in chemicals, test say there is not any difference in new resins to old resins. Then why do older boats have less osmosis than newer boats? Most all older boats get osmosis of one of the three examples above. There are several conditions to consider. Most of the older boats were hand laid and hand squeegeed to eliminate bubbles unlike today. Today there are far more newer boats being built and they just don’t build them like they used to. We know that warm water speeds up osmosis. I am sure there are many newer boats in the tropics now that older ones. A properly laid hull will have an even or proper mixture of catalyst and resin. There will not be any air bubbles. In the old days a boat builder always followed the color gelcoat with a black gelcoat so that the air bubbles could be better seen. Few do this today. The only sure way to get an even lay-up without air bubbles is to lay it up by hand and squeegee the air bubbles out with the excess resins. I was surprised to read that # 97 had some osmosis in the lamination. We, SLM Co. have never had osmosis in the laminations, not in the 25 years of boat building. This is the first I have heard of and I know Ron Thompson and do not even consider he is exaggerating. Jerry Norek, owner of Crystaliner, says he would have to see it or a good photo of it to be convinced. However, on the much earlier boats the aperture was cut out after the hull was finished and bondo was used for filling and faring. There were some major problems in this area on boats to hull (+/-) #40. However, even these problems were not threatening the integrity of the vessel. I had osmosis on XIPHIAS, hull #34 but they were small gel coat blisters that didn’t worry me but I mentioned it to Sam. Sam Morse and Crystaliner as well as the general public did not believe that osmosis even existed and if it did it was considered a rare case. Now we know it does exist and is wide spread throughout the industry. Don’t let any boat builder tell you that they do not have osmosis problems because some of the biggest names have far worse problems than we do. The move has been to vinylesters skin coats and an epoxy barrier coat. For the one who can afford it, a solid epoxy or vinylester hull. (Did you know that you can apply epoxy over polyester resins but you cannot apply polyester resins to epoxy?) What I am concerned about is that all this is new to us. We never believed in moisture penetrating polyester resin in the early days...some still reject it. The truth is it took about 20 years to find out what was happening and we still are not too sure why it happens. What will be the long term results with epoxy and vinylester???? We have had some boats with gelcoat blisters and some without, using the exact same resins and gelcoats; why some and not others. I have discussed this problem with other reputable builders and they are all having the same problems but no one wants to go public. The Sam L. Morse Company boats that have had osmosis have all been gelcoat blisters. What concerns me is that they seem to be in patterns like long rectangles or triangles. I have discussed this with Lilly (produces our gelcoats) and Crystaliner. We have concluded that Sam was of the philosophy that if a little of something was good more was better...that’s why our hulls are so thick. What we think is happening is that the heavier lay-up of gelcoat does not permit the solvents to evaporate before another pass is made. The last pass cures sooner than the inner coat because it is exposed to the air circulation. This results in the entrapment of solvents in the previous coats. This would explain why we only get gelcoat blisters and why they are often seen like patterns. From the first hull in 1975 to today, all our hulls are laid-up by Crystaliner and we supervise. After the hull mold is waxed it is sprayed with color gelcoat we want for the hull . This is followed by a black gelcoat so the bubbles can be seen. This is then followed by a skin coat of vinylester resin (since hull #99) which we know will retard the ingress of moisture. Each subsequent coat is hand mixed, hand applied and hand squeegeed. I am sure this is why we have not had problems with lamination blisters. We also have an option for four coats of epoxy barrier coat. I would like to mention that I discourage anyone who has blisters from applying an epoxy barrier coat over a moist hull. It should dry out completely before the barrier coat is applied. There is some talk that vinylester barrier coats are superior to epoxy barrier coats. I have discussed this with 3M and they will not warranty their product on our boats even if they supervise the application. So you can see how unsure everyone is about the future of modern application materials. If you have any questions or would like to discuss this or anything else, please call me on (949) 645-1843 Roger Olson, Sam L. Morse Co., Inc. |
Roger, it’s so good to see you here on the list! Isn’t this format awesome!
You’ll know you’ve become a computer maniac (i.e. “hacker”) when the sun
catches you still at the keyboard.
Regards
Donald Kircher
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To all members:
I am new to this so if this message goes through too many times someone
please cut it. My compliments to Jerry and the excellent job he has done on
this site and providing the opportunity to discuss our boats. As the
builder, I would normally stay out of this as I feel it is between owners
and interested parties. If someone wanted to approach me as the builder, my
email address is available. However, after reading about the osmosis
problems I should clear up a few questions and give my general response.
{…}
Thanks Don,
Not quite the hacker yet but getting closer
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Don K <dkircher@csi.com >
To: bcc@egroups.com <bcc@egroups.com >
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 3:12 PM
Subject: [bcc] Re: Osmotic Blisters on BCC’s
Roger, it’s so good to see you here on the list! Isn’t this format
awesome!You’ll know you’ve become a computer maniac (i.e. “hacker”) when the sun
catches you still at the keyboard.Regards
Donald Kircher
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Olson <roger.olson@worldnet.att.net >
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:35:36 -0700
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitTo all members:
I am new to this so if this message goes through too many times
someone
please cut it. My compliments to Jerry and the excellent job he has done
on
this site and providing the opportunity to discuss our boats. As the
builder, I would normally stay out of this as I feel it is between owners
and interested parties. If someone wanted to approach me as the builder,
my
email address is available. However, after reading about the osmosis
problems I should clear up a few questions and give my general response.{…}
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