Sam L Morse Out of Business?

Yes, you could find a cheaper service, and you would then quickly find the forum filled with spam messages.

We own our own web servers, and maintain them ourselves. We also provide 7/24/365 Personal service.

The accent of our business is quality, and quality costs.

There are, on average, at least two upgrades to the forum pages every month, usually because some black hat has found a way to circumvent the security. The average time it takes an employeee to service an upgrade is in the region of 2 hours, and employees expect to be paid.

I have no axe to grind over the future of this site, I don’t, and will never be able to afford a BCC,

Probably Jeremy Waters of “Calypso” is the best person to advise you. He has a good working knowledge of the technoloy used.

Makes sense to me

Gosh, if 35-40 of us kicked in, it would cost less than $20/year to keep a good connection, a good (and now more important) resource, and a fine tradition of owner interaction.  John has a good point...quality costs.....employees need to be paid and on and on.  Are we maybe being a little penny pinchy here?  Didn't we all buy our BCC's because they are about the best money can buy?  I think John has done a fine job with the web site....maybe he's about the best money can buy well. 

 With the sad news of Sumio deciding to call it quits, I already am feeling a little orphaned.  I'd hate to see this remaining BCC connection fall apart because we went bargin hunting.  For what it is worth................
Gosh, if 35-40 of us kicked in, it would cost less than $20/year to keep a good connection, a good (and now more important) resource, and a fine tradition of owner interaction.  John has a good point...quality costs.....employees need to be paid and on and on.  Are we maybe being a little penny pinchy here?  Didn't we all buy our BCC's because they are about the best money can buy?  I think John has done a fine job with the web site....maybe he's about the best money can buy well. 

 With the sad news of Sumio deciding to call it quits, I already am feeling a little orphaned.  I'd hate to see this remaining BCC connection fall apart because we went bargin hunting.  For what it is worth................

Tom:

In 1997 the Flicka sailboat was off the charts. I built a Flicka website and ran it for 3 years until I turned over ownership to another, after purchasing IDUNA - http://home.att.net/~seagypsy/. The site generated interest in the Flicka then another owner started a Flicka forum at Yahoo and another person started to publish Flicka Friends. Today the Flicka is alive and well. Currently there are only 18 Flicka for sale at YachtWorld. Total production was 450 boats. I have always felt without the website, Flicka Friends and especially the Flicka Forum, interest in the Flicka would be limited and the boat would be off the chart in today’s market of 45’ plastic euro-looking-creations.

At present the BCC has a good following but this may not always be the case if we as owners do not generate interest in the boat and serve as a technical support group to all owners and those interested in the BCC. The best place to do this is at this forum.

Lenora and I are willing to donate $25 to keep the forum alive. If 29 more users of this forum come forward with $25 we keep the forum running and their is enough money left over to buy pizza for John and his crew.

Fair Winds,

Rod
BCC IDUNA

P.S. John, thank you for the offer to keep the site alive.

I agree, count us in,
Scott and Dottie

On 3/2/07, BCC Forums bccforums@samlmorse.com wrote:

Add me in for $25.00 as well.
Wayne
BCC Odyssey

John,
There’s always one in every group !
I am happy and relieved that someone with your abilitiy is willing to continue this forum. We need it very much and the need will increase as time goes by (hmmm…good name for a song)
Please give me your address I’ll send $100
All my best
Jim Hiller
Cyrano

John:

Post your mailing address and let us know how you want the check made out - your name or Coledata. We will match Jim Hiller’s donation.

Rod

Rod, Jim:

You are both very generous, but I think we need to find a more formal arrangement. It must be considered that however we resolve this, it will be an annual commitment.

I don’t object to taking some “risk” in this, so here is an idea:

The current website agreement expires on 31st March.

I suggest that we place an item on the forum requesting donations, and a PayPal page where people can make those donations. We will also publish a list of donors. People on that list will actually own this site, and have a say in the running of the site with a vote proprtionate to their donation.

Then we have to work out what to do in the possible event that subscriptions exceed annual costs.

It’s a thought - let me know how you feel about it.

For the record, the address is:
Coledata, Inc
419D Concord Street
Havre de Grace, MD 21078
410 939 1653

John:

I concur with your thoughts. In principle it sounds quite simple but in practice it may be more difficult to fund the forum. Ownership also assumes the ownership group (company) takes on the liability should a user bring legal action against the forum.

It would seem, if the forum were run on donations then Coledate assumes liability and if a company or corporation (the users) owns the forum, the burden of liability is on the company/corporation.

Let’s assume, 10 or 20 forum users form a non-profit corporation that owns the forum, then the corporation assumes liability for any statement or technical advice posted at the forum. In addition, the corporation also takes on any tax burden or legal fees associated with the corporation. Further, instead of a $1,000 funding fee, we may be looking at $5,000 to form a non-profit corporation and fund the forum. Even if several users form a LLC, in the state of Maryland, the charter fee is about $50 and there is a $100-$150 annual fee to maintain the charter. In addition an LLC has a tax and liability burden. The State of Maryland also requires the LCC have two officers of the corporation and an annual board meeting.

Perhaps in the interest of protecting Coledate and those who are willing to fund the forum, we should look at the practical and legal side of this topic before we let our “devotion to the BCC” cloud our decisions.

I am not a lawyer but I believe we need to discuss this topic.

I do not believe Lenora and I are willing to take on the liability associated with ownership of the BCC forum nor should Coledate, Inc.

Fair Winds,

Rod
BCC IDUNA

I don’t think there is any need to become concerned about legal issues, and forming an organization is onerous and unnecessary.

Remember, this forum is moderated, although you don’t notice it. The reason you don’t notice it is because only one message has ever needed to be removed.

As to liability, there is established law that holds the poster, not the web medium, liable for any libel.

Frankly, I don’t see that happening with a bunch of people who either own, ar dream of owning, a $350,000 boat.

All we have to do is look at past postings in the forum - generally they are calls for advice, and response thereto.

Let’s call it a club - it doesn’t need any official status as such.

Regards
John

John:

Thank you for clarifying that point. I believe most forums, such as Yahoo Groups requires that the user agreee to their contract before the user is allowed to join a group. Is it necessary that we do anything like that?

When I ran my website, I posted a disclaimer on the site something to the effect, that before using an boat project or suggestion at the site, the person should consult with a marine professional. A lawyer friend suggested I do this. Although it did would not prevent a legal action against me, the user had been warned.

Based on your latest post Lenora and I will still donate $100 to the BCC Voyagers Club or what ever name is selected. Now we need someone to chair the club.

I suspose it is time to either do what is at hand or get off the pot. We need 8 more sailor to reach a goal of $1,000. If we have 20 pledges at the $100 membership, we can raise enough money to run the forum for 2 years.

Thanks,

Rod

Although not an owner, I’m in for $25.00. Paypal sounds easy. Pls advise alant@inbox.com

Didn’t we use yahoo groups before we switched over to John Cole Inc.? I belong
to several yahoo groups, and one in particular has over 5000 posting per month.
So if www.samlmorse.com is deactivated, what’s that problem with returning to
yahoo group? Is it the 30MB limit on free picture space?

I don’t know who you are John Cole, but as a BCC owner, and not a casual reader,
I have come away with the impression that you are using Sam L. Morse, Inc. as a
means to further your personal business interests. Especially in light of your
previous posting addressed to “Mr. Super Duper Web Designer”, and the constant
appearance of your photo in this group.

FYI, not all of us are computer-ignorant. I for one have been doing this for
32 years. $700 per year seems excessive. I am my own ISP, and it certainly
does not cost $700 per year to serve up a couple html pages with an tomcat
or apache server, and some spam filtering. Additionally, several good forum
packages can be found at sourceforge and elsewhere. But, why would we want
to do any of this went there are thousands of forums out there from large
outfits like google or yahoo?

I for one was disappointed in the switch away from yahoo groups. I do not see
“John Cole Web Designer” as a step up. So, as an alternate, I would throw in the
solution originally used for this forum, which is a forum hosted by some large
and widely used outfit such as yahoo or google.

I am not contributing to John Cole Web Designer, when good solutions already
exits. I think Jeremy did the right thing from the beginning, and I would have done the same thing as he, if I were starting up an internationally-viewed
forum and didn’t not want to fund a web design company.

Mark Gearhart

Thank you for your sentiments and many of them are valid.

However, the very fact that you are receiving a personal response, not an automated response must have some value. Strangely, it is also advertisement free.

When we switched from Yahoo Groups there was a big debate - you can probably find it in the archives. The switch was not really generated by my company, but at the desire of BCC and FC owners, because there were failures in the Yahoo system.

Jeremy Waters spent HUNDREDS of hours working on ensuring that no data was lost. I worked with him on this project. No-one asked anyone for any money, and certainly Sam L. Morse Company could not foot the bill. It was done as a gesture of goodwill to the clients of Sam L. Morse Company, and it worked well for all concerned. It actually cost me, personally, a few thousands of dollars in programmers? salaries to ensure that a) Sam L. Morse could have no influence over the site, and b) that all prior messages from the old Yahoo site were retained forever. I am not attempting to recover these costs; I am purely looking at the on-going situation. It cost Jeremy many, many, hours of processing to convert the data, and the fact that Jeremy and Nica have subscribed to this element might suggest that there IS some value in what we are trying to accomplish.

The forum is not a “couple of HTML pages”, there are some 27 different elements and it is all data based, and backed up every night.

I can understand your frustration, but please consider: every hour someone checks all messages to ensure that the system has not been defeated by spammers. At least twice a month we have to upgrade various programs to ensure that the data is safe. Consider also, that we backup to a different server in a different location.

Now we get to the personal bit: Yes you see my photo - that?s an avatar, and is attached to all messages produced by me. Feel free to enlarge one and put it on your dartboard! What you don’t see is the small army of technicians and programmers that are on the payroll and who need to be paid to do this. Worldwide we have 17 divisions in different language capabilities and internet skills. People from most of these divisions have worked on the forum at one time or another.

Oh! By the way, it?s not “John Cole, Inc”, it is Coledata.Inc. I am not the sole shareholder of the corporation, although I did found it, oh, about 20 years ago. Coledata, Inc. prides itself on producing quality deliveries to global situations. We only (Apparently until now) do anything other than mainstream corporate work.

I have already said this, but I will say it again, we endeavor to provide quality, no hooks, no advertising, we would NEVER sell your e-mail address.

Now here is YOUR challenge: If you really believe you can produce the same quality, no outsider flames, data security, remote backup, no advertising, total transactional security, personal service, and all at a lesser cost, and the current members accept it, then I have no problem: I will refund everyone their money immediately.

Although there is certainly room for discussion I’m with John on this issue
and have gladly contributed to the fund. First off, I once helped moderate
an internet discussion group and after the initial enthusiasm wears down,
the work continues and never stops. I have a lot of respect and sympathy for
John and, previously Nica and Jeremy for their having taken on the task and
provided a service which benefits me and hopefully many others. Secondly I
remember the “good old days” of Yahoo sponsorship of this group and a couple
of other groups to which I still subscribe. I found Yahoo impossible to deal
with when a problem of User ID change occurred – no way to talk to anyone
with authority to make simple obvious corrections, totally menu and
script-driven email exchanges with low paid robots. And there were always
constraints on photo gallery file size and the amount of trafffic permitted
within a fixed time period. Frustrating. And yes, advertisements . . .

What we have now works and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Itchen is currently under winter cover at Point Lookout Marina, but with any
luck at all I hope to find all the snow melted next weekend and start
varnish prep, rigging overhaul, hatch gasket replacement, and etc. etc.
Then we are thinking about heading north towards Maine and eventually Cape
Breton. Just to interject some content about boats and cruising . . . . .!

Regards to all,
Scott

On 3/12/07, BCC Forums bccforums@samlmorse.com wrote:

Scott if you’re up this way, please give a shout. I’ll either be in Huntington NY or Marthas Vineyard.

cheers

Itchen Wrote:

Itchen is currently under winter cover at Point
Lookout Marina, but with any
luck at all I hope to find all the snow melted
next weekend and start
varnish prep, rigging overhaul, hatch gasket
replacement, and etc. etc.
Then we are thinking about heading north towards
Maine and eventually Cape
Breton. Just to interject some content about boats
and cruising . . . . .!

Regards to all,
Scott

Oh boy! WE have our boat company out of business, we have a great forum set-up and a peeing contest. We are new to the BCC owners ( Jolie Brise ) group and from what we see of the Forum we agree with Scott. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it! It is in place, it works, and John seems have a very confident hand on the Forum tiller. If it cost so much to keep it afloat, so what ? I don’t know about you but I’ve paid alot more for things and got a lot less. We have read the Forum a long time before buying Jolie Brise and found the information and the exchange of such as being a great asset. We were glad to see that there was this really neat place that was dedicated to the BCC. lets not get bogged down with the source to a point where the Forum becomes an I can do it better than you can ego trip. Come on, we have some info to exchange and some sailing to do.
Bob & Lois

Thankk you for responding, and don’t worry - Unless the majority decide differently. Coledata’s intention is to retain the “staus quo”. So far there have been about three disenters,all of these with a personal axe to grind. It appears that there are way more many internet experts than we realized.

Incidentally, I know your boat well - we have wintered and summered besides each other for a couple of years,